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Dave May

Canon EOS R5 Announcement

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Just starting a thread around the R5 as an official announcement isn't far away.

Once all the info has officially dropped be happy to answer any questions. Unfortunately I wont be making a video like I did for the C300MKIII, at least not for launch, but can still speak to what I though from a hands on perspective

Cheers

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Looking forward to hearing about it. I had a Sony A9 I parted with because I didn't like the color coming out of it, but otherwise the tracking and electronic shutter blew me away. Have been waiting for this R5 to reveal itself for a while now. 

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8 hours ago, Dave Yoder said:

Looking forward to hearing about it. I had a Sony A9 I parted with because I didn't like the color coming out of it, but otherwise the tracking and electronic shutter blew me away. Have been waiting for this R5 to reveal itself for a while now. 

Im into the fact it looks like theyre now building their mirrorless cameras with an eye for how they'll work with the cinema series stuff. Sony has always done a good job setting the A7S etc up as B Cams for the FS7 line and think this is now similarly well thought through for the C300/C500.

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I hope the R5 is good, competition in the mirrorless space is always a good thing and I think Canon will nail this one after getting some experience with the EOS R. I myself don't shoot a lot on those types of cameras anymore as my work demands "bigger" and better cameras, but I love to own one for personal stuff and stills. 

Personally I've been very biased towards the Sony offerings after owning both the Sony A7s and A7sII. They were really good B-cams for my FS7. As @Dave May says think the R5 could be a really good B-cam for a C300 or C500 and set up a great eco-system on the Canon side.

Only thing I'm vary off is that the R5 will be a 8K camera. Putting more pixels and more resolution into a camera will affect the performance in a way, especially when packing it into a small camera. I can't for the hell of me think of anyone I know that shoots 8k or even 6k yet. I feel if Canon puts 8K into the R5 it's purely a marketing tactic. Manufacturers are still struggling to make cameras with 11-14 stops of usable dynamic range and sensors that can outbest the Arri sensor. 

I'm also dead tired of hearing all the "rumors" about these cameras. People spend too much time speculating in what comes next and how much difference there is between the different brands. The hype machine at the different brands are working overtime. In my experience people who actually make a good living off shooting and creating content don't get hanged up in what camera they have. Usually people buy into what fits into their existing workflow and kit. I myself have shot on the FS7 for five years and Amira for two. For stills I use the 5D Mark II(!) and it still fits my needs perfectly. 

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yeah totally agree. I hope canon doesn't do their crippling act on the 4K RAW with this camera though, like they didn't put an intermediary codec in the C200. I could totally see at this point in time the 4K RAW being the defacto intermediary codec they leave out to cripple it. I could handle some 4K raw, on occasion, but 8K is ridiculous (though yeah it could have a use now and then). That said, their RF lenses are said to be superior due to the smaller flange distance, so maybe that'll allow for reasonable sharpness on frames more tightly cropped than I'd feel comfortable doing with my other gear. 

The 5D Mark II was too loud I thought, I liked the Mark III better. Looking forward to the electronic shutter on this one, I hope its scan speed is as good as Sony's A9. 

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10 minutes ago, Martin Håndlykken said:

maybe we can get some peace and quiet (for half a year before rumors about the new camera comes out). 

I hope so! Though instead of rumours, we may get a load of people complaining that Sony haven't made the camera they want (and who will simultaneously refuse to switch to Canon or Panasonic).

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@Nezih people are gonna complain about both the Canon and Sony either way. It's never enough, never ever. It's funny because the people complaining are the people who I think mostly dosen't live off shooting or creating content. It's just a hunch, but I think there is something to it. Everyone I know who are working in the industry full time isn't going around the internet and posting silly comments like "why no 4:4:4 12-bit 960fps???". We're also not hung up on having the latest and greatest all the time, because most of our clients doesn't demand it. 

The whole market is inflated by marketing departments and "influencers" wanting to make as much money as possible off of people's obsession with specs and "the latest". It's capitalism at it's finest, and I wholdheartetly understand, but I'm sick of it anyway.

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10 hours ago, Martin Håndlykken said:

I'm also dead tired of hearing all the "rumors" about these cameras.

As soon as the R5 is released, the interwebs will be full of complaints and then speculation as to what the R6 will bring and questions about when it will be released.

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Considering the leaked photo showing 21 min of shoot time with 8K RAW on the 512GB CFExpress card, you can go ahead and add AT LEAST another $650 just to make that option barely functional. Not to mention if you need to shoot more than that, and batteries, and backed up duplicate storage... I think it's going to be a very specialised camera, certainly not a workhorse cinema camera. And of course let's not forget that it's not intended to be a cinema camera, but a stills camera. 

Regarding the cinema functions, I'm far more interested in whether it has precision eye tracking in 4K or 8K like Sony does in 4K. For me, that's far more of a game changer than 8K raw. It's also interesting to note, judging from the leaked photo, that the formats other than RAW will be ALL-I and IPB. I suppose .MXF was asking too much. Will the ALL-I be 10-bit? And will the RAW option gray out when 4K is chosen? Those will be two huge factors that make or break this camera for some, just like the C200. 

https://petapixel.com/2020/07/06/8k-modes-for-canon-eos-r5-leaked-no-crop-no-overheating-issues/

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Forgot to mention no dual-slot recording is also a major issue for me, as I've had enough cards die on me to be wary. I hope it'll be possible to record to dual record on a lesser codec in the other card slot. 

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@Dave Yoder All good points, Dave. 

Personally, I don't understand the hype around RAW. Sure, it's great, but when do you REALLY need it? 

I can tell you that much that people creating stuff for Facebook, Instagram and other SoMe do not need RAW most of the time.

I shoot XAVC-I 10-bit on my FS7 and it's fine for almost everything I do. My Amira shoots ProRes 4444 XQ if I need it and that's just very robust when I need to grade it much. But most of the time I shoot 422 HQ which is plenty for most work.

Mirrorless cameras aren't a big part of my workflow anymore, but if I'm getting one as a small nimble camera or B-camera, this is what I need:

- Good quality HD and/or 4K

- Log profile that can cirka match my FS7 and/or Amira

- ALL-I codec (10-bit would be great)

- XLR-module for audio (two inputs like the Sony K3M-solution, top mic and lav)

- Decent battery life (A7III has pretty good battery life as reference)

- Good auto-focus (to use on gimbals etc)

- If possible a ND-solution which do not require screw on filters on the lens

RAW, slow-motion, 6K-8K, 100fps-200fps is all a bonus, but not a necessity for me. 

If you can nail the fundamentals people will buy it and people will use it. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Martin Håndlykken said:

Personally, I don't understand the hype around RAW. Sure, it's great, but when do you REALLY need it? 

Coming from a background as a professional photographer, this question is often raised by those who shoot nothing but JPG. I've always shot RAW stills and have found if far more flexible that JPG in difficult lighting conditions. When you can control the light, then what you shoot is a moot point. I find the same now when it comes to video, I am rarely able to control the lighting or do so ideally.

The other thing that I've tried to explain to the JPG shooter is that RAW processors keep improving all the time and that shot you took years ago in RAW can now be re-processed even more than you could back when it was first taken, providing even better results. A JPG remains a JPG for life. Here's an example of what can be done with RAW, but could never have been achieved with JPG.

JPG (effective):

RAWa.thumb.jpg.079b13749704e0a70842c4987041a602.jpg

RAW Processed:

RAWb.thumb.jpg.41e923b8e45514e24fce1d4beea02948.jpg

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I'm with Ray, also having come from a stills background where I ONLY shot RAW, and being shocked at the low quality of the widely accepted codecs when I started in video. It wasn't like going back to shooting jpegs, it was a far worse experience for me. Had to recalibrate, so to speak, the arrogant assumption that I wouldn't have to go back to the basics when I started into moving images. I knew audio would be a challenge, but I hadn't expected the imagery to be so difficult to wrap my head around. 

And it's not only how much more you can do, but how much faster you can do it with a great program like Resolve. 

The only purpose of a JPEG is to throw away as much data, information, as it can get away with. That is its only goal. That data is your color and gamma and, if I may bloviate a bit, art. 

Edited by Dave Yoder

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I think features like 10bit, 4K and high frame rates are now stock standard for most cameras and it's hard for any manufacturer to differentiate themselves by including these features alone, especially to the part of the market that doesnt live and breathe this stuff like most of us do. Something like 8K is a good way for Canon to plant the flag and say that the R5 is a high end/next gen product to everyone. 

Would I use 8K on camera? Probably not this year, I've only shot 8K once and it was for a pretty specialised project. But having it included does extend the life span of the product a bit and means that if you're someone who holds onto gear for a while, an R5 might still be useful for some time as the rest of tech catches up. I've also become used to having 4K flexibility in HD projects and now that 4K delivery is becoming a standard, having 8K flexibility on a 4K timeline would be really handy.

As far as I see it the biggest thing standing in the way of 6K and 8K adoption for shooting is storage costs. Id shoot raw on my C500MKII every day if at the end of the day I had a cost effective and fast way of storing the data. In Australia you'd be hard pressed to find any portable SSD larger than 2TB and when 30min of RAW footage can be 512gb, that's a big problem.

@Martin Håndlykken I'm with you on that list of practical features. If I'm shooting on a mirrorless DSLR then I'm looking for the things that will make it a viable B cam or gimbal cam that can cut in with an A cam.

Looking forward to talking more freely about the R5 tomorrow and hearing your thoughts on it. @Australian Image (Ray) you might not have to wait that long for news on the R6 😉

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@Dave May I think the majority of reviews of camera and tech lack a practical angle on how the kit or gear actually functions in a working environment. I just saw a review on YouTube for the C300MKIII, solid technical review, but completely lacking in footage and "real world" experience on how to use the camera and pragmatic reflections on how the camera might fit into a workflow.

Newsshooter and @Matthew Allard ACS in particular does a great job on reviewing a camera with a practical angle. It's far more valuable for me to read or hear someone discuss how a camera was to work with on an actual shoot or in a specific environment than a "simple" technical review. If you're reviewing a camera like that you'll get across a lot of good info, sure, but it will completely lack any form of connection for the reader or viewer because we don't use cameras in that way. 

Because manufacturers now seem to focus heavily on specs to market the cameras that's what many reviewers focus on, and that's a shame. That's why I support this site and other sites that actually makes content focused on both the technical side but also the practical side on how to use a camera. 

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It's a relief that you can, kind of, dual slot record in 4K 10-bit to the SD card while shooting one of the 8K options. 

Interesting recording limits, but this isn't really geared toward interviews, other than b-cam angles, is it? 

I wish they'd included a 4K raw option but it's hard to complain. If you're gonna use it for shooting RAW, it's probably going to be for a very particular thing anyway. I do hope they add the other LOG profiles at some point. 

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LOL good point... downsampling AND compressing raw rather than a simpler compressed feed to the card. If we want that, get a good computer and have a couple beers. 

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@Dave Yoder Exactly. Think that's also the reason most small cameras and even cinema cameras need to shoot the native resolution of the sensor since it dosen't require additional processing scaling down the RAW. RED has this nailed down to a science with their R3D, and the Komodo will be their step in bringing in-camera compressed RAW to a very small body. 

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So that 4K ALL-I "enhanced 4K" might run even hotter and suck more power than the 8K raw. 

Crazy times. 

I had a Sony A9 for a while and was blown away by the eye tracking but sold it because I didn't like the colours coming out of it. I've been waiting for the R5 ever since. That said, I really liked how the back LCD articulated in place so you could treat it like a Roller viewfinder. I don't like how the R5's has to swing to the left. I understand gimbal operators will like that better, but I really liked holding that little Sony in my hand like a baby bird that fell from its nest and quietly tracking people as they walking into an inch-thick shaft of light between buildings... I think it's gonna be awkward tapping the subject you want to track with it swung out like that. The Sony changed how I want to shoot. 

Edited by Dave Yoder

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8 hours ago, Dave Yoder said:

I really liked holding that little Sony in my hand like a baby bird that fell from its nest and quietly tracking people as they walking

I reckon your level of comfort with the camera you're using pretty much outweighs almost everything else. One of the reasons I became such a big fan of the canon cinema cameras was that they were one of the first cameras I found a comfortable way to shoot with that didnt involve shoulder mounting. It meant my coverage was better and I just generally had more fun shooting.

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A solid release from Canon.

But I think the cool down times after shutdown due to heat might be an issue. Once the heat protection kicks in (after 20minutes) camera needs to cool down for 10 minutes and after that only offers an additional 3 minutes of shooting. And then you are stuck in that loop.

I almost never just "let the camera roll" and shoot for so long, but it's going to be a factor for people who shoot interviews or maybe events and weddings where each clip is shorter, but the camera is shooting constantly over a longer time period.

I'd say 8K shooting and long clips might not necessarily go hand in hand, but I think these restrictions apply to all 8K derived modes like the FF 4K mode scaled from 8K. The 4K60 mode is also mentioned as a candidate for over heating.

 

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