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S1/Z6/XT4 - Best all-rounder for video including documentary work?

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Hi Everyone.

I've been scouring every corner of the internet for days now trying to figure out which camera to go for and I'm pulling my hair out.

I'm looking for a versatile mirrorless camera for a mix of documentary and narrative work.

I'm confident that all the options I'm looking at are suitable for the kind of narrative, commercial and music video work I do.

However I also need something that I can use for documentary work - largely handheld. Sometimes filming actuality, following subjects around. Sometimes nice cinematic b-roll. I like to keep DOF relatively shallow.

My priorities:

- Good IBIS
- Good lowlight
- Ability to record and monitor audio
- Good for photography
- A good native zoom lens for general documentary work

Secondary considerations:

- 10- bit internal would be nice
- Autofocus - AF is something I've never used in the past. Being trained in natural history filmmaking a decade ago - the idea of using AF for video was laughable. I'm unsure whether I'm missing a trick here. Is some AF now truly good enough to accurately track and keep focus on subjects at shallow depths of field?

Right now it's a real toss up between the Panasonic S1, Nikon Z6 and the Fuji XT4

For a while I was pretty set on getting the Panasonic S1. I like the idea of a bigger camera for handheld work and the IBIS looks great. Internal 10 bit also appealing. But once I add the costs of the firmware upgrade and an expensive L-series zoom, the whole kit will cost around €3200, instead of around €2300 for the XT4 or €2100 for the Z6.

I considered the Gh5 and A7iii too but I'm leaning away from them because of the bad low light and m4/3 mount on the gh5 and the lack of 10-bit recording (even externally) on the a7iii.

I'm leaning towards full frame options for what they offer in terms of shallow DOF and low light capabilities.

I have a set of old Nikon AIS primes which I love using and plan on adapting these to whatever setup I have.
Any help here would be much appreciated!

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- If you need good autofocus, it'll have to be the Fuji or the Nikon. 

- The best integration of audio recording is going to be the XLR module for the Panasonic.

- The best option for a native zoom lens for doco work will be the Fuji with the 18-55mm and 50-135mm MK zooms.

- For internal 10-bit recording, only the Panasonic and the Fuji will give you 50-60fps options in 10-bit

- For external video monitoring, the S1 gives you full-size HDMI, the Nikon mini HDMI and the Fuji micro HDMI. So the Panasonic will be the most solid of the three on that front.

- For lowlight the Nikon and Panasonic should destroy the Fuji by a stop or two.

- The control interface on the Panasonic S1H looks to be the best of the mirrorless cameras (I don't know if the S1 is the same). For video work the S1H certainly seem superior on all fronts. The Fuji's controls are quite good though, and with a little customisation of the quick menu, it's very fast to work with. The Nikon I haven't seen in person, so can't speak to.

All three options have compromises, and all three have benefits.

If I were buying a mirrorless camera for video now, I'd probably be looking at the S1H first, and the X-T4 second. They seem to have the fewest compromises.

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5 hours ago, Mark K said:

- If you need good autofocus, it'll have to be the Fuji or the Nikon. 

- The best integration of audio recording is going to be the XLR module for the Panasonic.

- The best option for a native zoom lens for doco work will be the Fuji with the 18-55mm and 50-135mm MK zooms.

- For internal 10-bit recording, only the Panasonic and the Fuji will give you 50-60fps options in 10-bit

- For external video monitoring, the S1 gives you full-size HDMI, the Nikon mini HDMI and the Fuji micro HDMI. So the Panasonic will be the most solid of the three on that front.

- For lowlight the Nikon and Panasonic should destroy the Fuji by a stop or two.

- The control interface on the Panasonic S1H looks to be the best of the mirrorless cameras (I don't know if the S1 is the same). For video work the S1H certainly seem superior on all fronts. The Fuji's controls are quite good though, and with a little customisation of the quick menu, it's very fast to work with. The Nikon I haven't seen in person, so can't speak to.

All three options have compromises, and all three have benefits.

If I were buying a mirrorless camera for video now, I'd probably be looking at the S1H first, and the X-T4 second. They seem to have the fewest compromises.

Thanks for the clear breakdown. Based on the last week reading in circles around the internet it is indeed a tricky decision. 

The S1H is probably out of my price range and more than double the cost of the XT4 where I am. 

The XT4 does look great though I wonder if I'll regret the lack of full frame and the diminished low light ability.

I love being able to shoot with available light without having to worry. I've become accustomed to the a7sii low light capabilities.

My only other point of reference is the Gh2 (my last camera). I assume even the XT4 represents a marked improvement on the lowlight performance of the Gh2?

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5 hours ago, Australian Image (Ray) said:

Have you given any thought to either the BMPCC4K or BMPCC6K? Other than stills photography, either of these two would provide far more capability and the former far more versatility in lens choice.

Actually I haven't given these cameras perhaps as much thought as I should have.

Looking at the specs my main reservations would be

- lack of IBIS which I *think* is something I consider essential for doc filming now, though maybe that's misguided.

- M43 sensor which I assume won't perform as well in low light as the full frame mirrorless cameras

 

 

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Honestly, for documentary work, I'd consider something like the Sony PMXW-z280 (or Canon/Panasonic equivalents). You'll find it much more useful, versatile, and pleasant to work with... whilst still getting good looking shots.

If budget allows, a mirrorless (maybe APS-C to keep cost down) on the side with one prime lens, or something like the Sigma 18-35 1.8.

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It's a little out of my budget. 

I've done bigger doc shoots with FS7 and F5's before and I think I'll continue to use those where I can on doc shoots when renting is an option.

This purchase is so that I can have something to do smaller doc projects, self funded doc work, reduced-rate or pro bono work for charities and activist groups, personal projects, music videos etc.

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One thing to consider with the BMPCC: battery life is really, really poor, not viable for doc work without an external power solution. 

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8 hours ago, James_From_Raglan said:

Actually I haven't given these cameras perhaps as much thought as I should have.

Looking at the specs my main reservations would be

- lack of IBIS which I *think* is something I consider essential for doc filming now, though maybe that's misguided.

- M43 sensor which I assume won't perform as well in low light as the full frame mirrorless cameras

 

 

IBIS isn't as essential as one would think. It can help, but when set up well and with a bit of heft, you can hand hold and get very good results. Sometime IBIS can be a hindrance rather than a help, and the m4/3 sensor in the BMPCC4K isn't anywhere near as bad in low light as many would presume. It's not up to Sony A7s capability, but still pretty good.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Michi said:

One thing to consider with the BMPCC: battery life is really, really poor, not viable for doc work without an external power solution. 

That's quite incorrect, when shooting 4K DCI its battery life (with a genuine Canon battery only) is almost on par with any DSLR/mirrorless doing the same. See my post here: https://www.newsshooter.com/forums/index.php?/topic/257-bmpcc4k6k-power-options/ and have a look at the link to the Wolfcrow site.

And here's a link to another Wolfcrow article on the Sony FX9 and Canon C500 MkII: https://wolfcrow.com/sony-fx9-vs-canon-c500-mark-ii-which-is-the-best-camera-for-video-and-filmmaking/. When you compare the battery life of the Sony to the BMPCC4K (Wh to Wh), it's almost identical.

So please, don't keep rehashing this tired old meme that you need a semi load of batteries for the BMPCC4K if you want to shoot an hour of video.

Edited by Australian Image (Ray)

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45/60min battery life for 6k/4k bmpcc according to official stats. For me that‘s way to poor for docu shooting.

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18 minutes ago, Michi said:

45/60min battery life for 6k/4k bmpcc according to official stats. For me that‘s way to poor for docu shooting.

You get little more with any other camera ever made. With the simple addition of a lightweight NP-F adapter and NP-F battery, I can shoot all day (4 hours with just one battery). I can shoot longer than with a bulky V-lock that many use on their cinema cameras.

Unfortunately, you and many others keep repeating 'official' stats or people who don;t actually use the camera and ignore actual user experience. Here's a video that I put together showing my small run and gun rig: https://youtu.be/9dx0rK4CILU?t=147. This setup provides far more versatility than you'd get with any DSLR/mirrorless rig that needs dummy batteries and awkward adapters to be able to achieve anything similar.

 

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For dedicated video work (if you genuinely don't need the camera to double as a stills camera, and can survive without autofocus), I'd have to agree with Ray's suggestion of the Blackmagic Pockets (4k and 6k). 

We were using them on a doco series I'd just started shooting before COVID shut us down, and ergonomically/operationally, they're SO much easier to use than the mirrorless hybrids.

You've got false colour for exposure metering at the press of a button. Proper video codecs. Proper variable frame rates. Full-sized HDMI port (they should have gone with SDI, but that's an argument I'll seemingly never win) which is at the very least a BIG improvement over the micro/mini HDMI madness of the Nikon and the Fuji. The sensors make nice pictures with a wide dynamic range.

With the Pocket 4k you can add a Speedbooster for better low-light and greater lens options, and with the Pocket 6k you can get a kit to adapt to PL-mount if you need.

You still need to rig them up like the hybrid cameras, but the overall workflow is nicer, and most importantly - there's less to worry about (which is almost the biggest thing when you're flying solo, and have to handle more by yourself).

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8 hours ago, Australian Image (Ray) said:

You get little more with any other camera ever made.

Ah, come on.

With the C200 I can shoot for two hours straight with a BP-30, and 4-5 hours with a BP-60. 

And I wrote in my first reply „...not viable for doc work WITHOUT an external power solution.“

As it’s name suggests, the BMPCC is not really a Docu-Cam. But admittedly neither are the S1, XT4 and Z6. 
I‘m not even saying the BMPCC is a bad Camera, but battery life IS one of it‘s weaknesses and something to be aware of.

Cheers

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Michi said:

Ah, come on.

With the C200 I can shoot for two hours straight with a BP-30, and 4-5 hours with a BP-60. 

And I wrote in my first reply „...not viable for doc work WITHOUT an external power solution.“

As it’s name suggests, the BMPCC is not really a Docu-Cam. But admittedly neither are the S1, XT4 and Z6. 
I‘m not even saying the BMPCC is a bad Camera, but battery life IS one of it‘s weaknesses and something to be aware of.

Cheers

Have you ever heard of the term, comparing apples with apples?

The BP-30 is a 28Wh battery, the BP-60 is a 56Wh battery. The Canon LP-E6N is a 14Wh battery. The LP-E6n will run my BMPCC4K shooting 4K DCI at Q0 for a full 50 min. If you're shooting at the same specs, then the BMPCC4K is just marginally behind. But are you quoting recording time shooting at those equivalent specs, or something like 1080p?

Now given that the C200 is a rather bulky camera to begin with, adding a small external adapter and battery to the BMPCC4K is pretty much a nothing burger. If you had a look at my video, my BMPCC4K rig is quite possibly smaller and lighter than your C200.

Additionally, there is no such thing as a dedicated documentary camera, any camera doing documentary work is a documentary camera, even a GoPro. Camera snobbery isn't becoming. However, at the end of the day, battery life is no more of an issue with the BMPCC4K than any other camera.

Edited by Australian Image (Ray)

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Those were your words:

9 hours ago, Australian Image (Ray) said:

You get little more with any other camera ever made.

I replied to that quote...

30 minutes ago, Australian Image (Ray) said:

Additionally, there is no such thing as a dedicated documentary camera, any camera doing documentary work is a documentary camera, even a GoPro. Camera snobbery isn't becoming.

And again, this is just some baseless smartassism. Sure, you can shoot documentaries with a GoPro. But there are better options. Is it camera snobbery when someone does not want to shoot an interview with a GoPro? 

But whatever, I don‘t know why I‘m arguing with you anyway. 
Needs, experiences and expectations can vary. Maybe we can agree on that?

 

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25 minutes ago, Michi said:

Those were your words:

I replied to that quote...

And again, this is just some baseless smartassism. Sure, you can shoot documentaries with a GoPro. But there are better options. Is it camera snobbery when someone does not want to shoot an interview with a GoPro? 

But whatever, I don‘t know why I‘m arguing with you anyway. 
Needs, experiences and expectations can vary. Maybe we can agree on that?

 

My point is that spreading misinformation based not on experience, but hearsay, is not helping anyone.

I'm quite happy to agree that everyone's needs and expectations are different, but don't conflate your needs and expectations with those of others and, especially, use hearsay as evidence to support your point of view.

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Battery life of < 1 hour can be considered insufficiant for certain uses. It might not be for you but certanly is for other people. That does not mean it‘s misinformation, it simply is a different perspective.

And one last info: A 90D runs for 5 to 6 hours on that exact same battery. Sure, it has other shortcomings, but that was the main reason I bought it as a B-Cam instead of a BMPCC 6K. Because for me that‘s a crucial factor. YMMV

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3 minutes ago, Michi said:

Battery life of < 1 hour can be considered insufficiant for certain uses. It might not be for you but certanly is for other people. That does not mean it‘s misinformation, it simply is a different perspective.

And one last info: A 90D runs for 5 to 6 hours on that exact same battery. Sure, it has other shortcomings, but that was the main reason I bought it as a B-Cam instead of a BMPCC 6K. Because for me that‘s a crucial factor. YMMV

I'm afraid that your argument really doesn't stand up when it comes to real world use.

A Canon 90D can shoot 4K video continuously for 5-6 hours on one LP-E6N battery? Wow!

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It cannot do it continuously since it has a 30min recording limit. But yes, it almost holds through a whole shooting day on one battery.
Go rent one and try if you don‘t believe me. 

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Posted (edited)

I did have to do a bit of checking around as no one seemed to want to talk about the battery life of the 90D when shooting video, but persistence pays: https://www.videomaker.com/reviews/canon-90d-hands-on-review-dslrs-arent-dead-yet/.

First off, I don't know why anyone would ever consider the 90D for video, but that beside the point. In this article:

Quote

One thing that is really great about DSLRs is that the batteries usually last a bit longer than mirrorless cameras and the 90D is no exception. I took the camera for a hike that took about three hours. I was using the camera constantly but turning it off intermittently. I still had a little juice at the end.

A three hour hike where the camera was being turned off intermittently. That doesn't sound like 5-6 hours of constant use.

And the irony is that the writer even recommends a GH5 or BMPCC4K. I'll leave it at that.

Edited by Australian Image (Ray)

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Just rent one and try, then you don‘t have to relay on hearsay. Because remember...?

20 hours ago, Australian Image (Ray) said:

My point is that spreading misinformation based not on experience, but hearsay, is not helping anyone.

 

However you turn it, Battery life of the BMPCC is still not great. That‘s all I‘m saying. Don‘t take it personal, you can still use and like your BMPCC. 

 

 

 

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May I ask why you are so intent on disparaging a camera that delights literally thousands of owners who don't see this as an issue whatsoever? The BMPCC4K is an immensely popular cine camera and if your concern was seen as an issue, few would be interested in owning one.

Yet once again there appears to be a world-wide shortage of the BMPCC4K, along with waiting lists, and in Australia the price has risen once again. Perhaps owners and would be owners of the the BMPCC4K see things differently to the way you do. I wouldn't have bought a second one if battery life was an issue.

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14 minutes ago, Australian Image (Ray) said:

May I ask why you are so intent on disparaging a camera that delights literally thousands of owners

Except I‘m not. You read way too much into what I actually wrote. 
I would have bought a BMPCC 6K for its EF-mount, the great codecs and framerates. But its power draw (and to a smaller degree the lack of AF) makes it unfit for my shootings, which is 90% documentary.
So I gave my perspective for the person starting this thread, who is looking for a documentary camera. That’s it.

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