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So Canon has introduced a camera that has a similar design to that of the BMPCC4K/6K, only bulkier. I'll be curious as to whether all the criticism levelled at the design of the latter will be levelled at the former. Perhaps Blackmagic's design wasn't all that bad after all. The C70 also seems to be a bit crippled in what formats are available, but then that's fairly typical with Canon.

Edit I: I notice from the comments that there are still those who can't seem to live without a built-in EVF.

Edit II: I also notice that there are still people about that complain about the lack of a 5" flip-out screen on the BMPCC4K/6K, the supposedly poor battery life, and now a lack of top handle. The so-called poor battery life of the BMPCC4K (especially) is a real bugbear to me when I hear it. The LP-E6N battery is only 1865MAh; whereas, the BP-A30 is 3200MAh, almost double the capacity of the BMPCC battery. With two LP-E6N batteries, I can get close to 150min of recording time, which is not too bad. With my current setup using an NP-F970 and LP-E6N, I can get four hours of 4KDCI recording. And those NP-F970 batteries (IDX) are far cheaper than the Canon BP-A batteries. Just thought I'd get that off my chest.

 

Edited by Australian Image (Ray)

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Actually, I need to make a correction regarding the battery capacity. The Canon LP-E6N has a 14Wh rating; whereas, the Canon BP-A30 battery has a 45Wh rating. That's 3.2x the BMPCC4K/6K battery capacity. My IDX NP-F970 equivalent batteries (at 48Wh) give me 188min of 4KDCI recording time (which I gather is far more battery intensive than what the C70 can record), so that's as good, if not better than what the C70 gets out of a BP-A30. The BP-A30 is also physically not much smaller than the NP-F970 battery. Just thought I'd add that info.

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Canon states 175 min. of recording (4K DCI 50p) with the BP-A30 battery, so 13 min less than what you state your BMCC does with a battery that has almost two times the capacity (3200 mAh vs. 6300 mAH). 

Pretty obvious there's a rather big difference regarding power draw, isn't it? 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Michi said:

Canon states 175 min. of recording (4K DCI 50p) with the BP-A30 battery, so 13 min less than what you state your BMCC does with a battery that has almost two times the capacity (3200 mAh vs. 6300 mAH). 

Pretty obvious there's a rather big difference regarding power draw, isn't it? 

I don't think you read what I wrote, so I'll try and make things a little clearer:

- A single Canon LP-E6N (rated at 14Wh) gives me 52min recording time, so 3 x LP-E6N (42Wh) would give me 156min recording time.

- One IDX NP-F970 (rated at 48Wh) gives me 188min recording time.

- A single LP-E6N (in-camera) and one IDX NP-F (on-camera) gives me a total of four hours recording time (and it's hot swappable).

- One BP-A30 (rated at 45Wh) gives the C70, as you say, 175min of recording time (and doesn't look hot swappable).

As far as recording time goes and battery life, this is close enough to an apples with apples comparison. I have no idea what power draw difference there are when it comes to BRAW and whatever format the C70 is using for 4K, but someone might have an idea.

I raised the issue because even now in one of the C70 YouTube reviews, the BMPCC4K is bagged for poor battery life while the C70 praised on its battery life. The BMPCC4K will ostensibly run for just as long as the C70 with the same capacity batteries.

I should have added that you are looking at the batteries based on MAh, not Wh. The NP-F batteries are 7.2V while the BP-A batteries are 14.4V. You have to convert each battery to its Wh capacity. Why do you think all V-mount batteries are rated at Wh, not MAh?

Edited by Australian Image (Ray)

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And just a comment on the ergonomics of the camera. It's incredibly chunky, so I wonder how comfortable it'll be to hold for any length of time, especially for those with small hands. More so if using the flip screen and trying to access the side buttons.

One other thing is that some people will want a cage for this camera and with all the buttons, flip out screen, air intake etc, I think cage manufacturers are going to have an interesting time making a functional cage for this camera.

Of note is that with just about every camera released so far, cage manufacturers have released a cage design just a few days after the camera has been formally released. I couldn't find anything for the C70.

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OK, I've looked at numerous videos and tried to find a diagram that explains all the buttons on the camera, but nothing and no one has ever mentioned this. What on earth is the button/protrusion on the top-left of the camera next to the sensor location indicator?

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1 hour ago, Australian Image (Ray) said:

OK, I've looked at numerous videos and tried to find a diagram that explains all the buttons on the camera, but nothing and no one has ever mentioned this. What on earth is the button/protrusion on the top-left of the camera next to the sensor location indicator?

What button?

Screen Shot 2020-09-27 at 12.05.10.png

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1 hour ago, Australian Image (Ray) said:

That protrusion/knob that sticks out of the top-right in the photo (just above the C).

That’s a tape hook for measuring focus distance from an object to the sensor plane.

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I was beginning to think it was something to hang your press pass off. That's the first time I've ever seen such a thing on any cinema camera (nothing that obvious anyway). I had to do some Googling and it seems to be more a Canon thing. I checked Arri, RED, Panasonic, Sony, Kinefinity and couldn't see any such thing. And when fully rigged out and with a fat cinema lens, I'm not sure you'd be able to put a tape measure there anyway.

Is this something that people actually use? I do understand that for many productions distance measurements are taken and even lines marked on the ground for the actors, but when it's that critical, doesn't the focus puller mark the spots on their focus wheels? For macro work I can understand fine measurement, but for general use?

Also, given that Canon users rave about their cameras' fantastic auto-focus capabilities, isn't this a bit redundant?

Edited by Australian Image (Ray)

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16 minutes ago, Australian Image (Ray) said:

I was beginning to think it was something to hang your press pass off. That's the first time I've ever seen such a thing on any cinema camera (nothing that obvious anyway). I had to do some Googling and it seems to be more a Canon thing. I checked Arri, RED, Panasonic, Sony, Kinefinity and couldn't see any such thing. And when fully rigged out and with a fat cinema lens, I'm not sure you'd be able to put a tape measure there anyway.

Is this something that people actually use? I do understand that for many productions distance measurements are taken and even lines marked on the ground for the actors, but when it's that critical, doesn't the focus puller mark the spots on their focus wheels? For macro work I can understand fine measurement, but for general use?

Also, given that Canon users rave about their cameras' fantastic auto-focus capabilities, isn't this a bit redundant?

Almost all high end digital cinema cameras will have either a mark, a hook, or a mark where you can place a rape hook. My ARRI has one, the Kinefinity I use also has a Mark with a hole for putting the hook. 
 

Most of them are removable. I would imagine the one in the C70 is as well. 
 

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A mark I can understand. Every camera that I've ever owned has the mark to indicate the film or sensor plane.

But does anyone really use this feature anymore? And once you fit a cage over that, it most likely becomes unusable.

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33 minutes ago, Australian Image (Ray) said:

A mark I can understand. Every camera that I've ever owned has the mark to indicate the film or sensor plane.

But does anyone really use this feature anymore? And once you fit a cage over that, it most likely becomes unusable.

Yep, distances are still measured and marked using tape, in conjunction with systems like Cinetape. 

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12 minutes ago, Matthew Allard ACS said:

Yep, distances are still measured and marked using tape, in conjunction with systems like Cinetape.

Yes, I noted that earlier that some film sets do measure distances; however, is the likely user of one of these cameras going to be carrying around a tape measure and how long a tape measure? I have a Leica DISTRO D2 laser distance measurer, which is smaller, lighter, easier to carry around and use, and more accurate (three decimal point accuracy), than any tape measure. But even then I would find it mostly redundant.

When measuring distance from this nub on the camera, is it to the subjects chest, nose, eye, ear or foot? Do you measure each subject's physical attributes to get an accurate reference point? And how can you determine that the actor will stop at the exact required point marked out on the floor, not a millimetre more or less?

I'm being a bit pedantic now, as this measurement capability from the exact sensor plane seems to be so variable and imprecise as to be ostensibly pointless in the real world. A focus puller would simply have someone stand in place of the subject, mark the focus wheel for all required points matching the floor markings and be done with it. And all this has to happen with a camera fixed on a tripod, as any movement would defeat the measurements.

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Most of the assistants I work with still carry a tape although it's rarely pulled out.  More often in pre when mapping lenses for their remote units and checking lens markings for accuracy.  Sometime a tape is just easier than laser.  As for whether a user of this camera will tape or measure,  depends on the use.  I expect my assistants will be using them to check my lenses and camera's back focus/mount adapter flange and shim accuracy etc.  Admittedly all my lenses are PL so will this type of checks will play more in this world.

Edited by Mark Broadbent

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On 9/25/2020 at 10:23 PM, Australian Image (Ray) said:

I don't think you read what I wrote, so I'll try and make things a little clearer:

- A single Canon LP-E6N (rated at 14Wh) gives me 52min recording time, so 3 x LP-E6N (42Wh) would give me 156min recording time.

- One IDX NP-F970 (rated at 48Wh) gives me 188min recording time.

- A single LP-E6N (in-camera) and one IDX NP-F (on-camera) gives me a total of four hours recording time (and it's hot swappable).

- One BP-A30 (rated at 45Wh) gives the C70, as you say, 175min of recording time (and doesn't look hot swappable).

So you say that a BMPC has a longer run time with an external power suply compared to a C70 with it’s on camera battery...? Sure, why wouldn‘t it have that? Get a V-Mount battery and the difference will increase even more... 
But then again, use that external power source on the C70 and the whole argument is gone. I mean, of course it‘s only hot swappable if you have two power sources...

On 9/25/2020 at 10:23 PM, Australian Image (Ray) said:

BMPCC4K is bagged for poor battery life while the C70 praised on its battery life.

And with good reason. If it‘s not the power management of the BMPC (as your equation indicates), then it‘s the decison to use LP-E6Ns as on camera power source. Why use those small batteries for a camera with such powerfull recording options? And worse: why on earth did they decide to use a different model of batteries for their grip? If you don‘t want to use external power sources almost any camera I know lasts longer than the BMPC (except maybe the GoPros).  That simply is a fact.

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On 9/26/2020 at 2:23 PM, Pipkato said:

Does the C70 have punch-in focus magnification during recording?

Pretty sure it does. All other C-line cameras have it and there‘s a MAG. button on the grip that will probably (as on all other Canons) do just that...

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4 hours ago, Michi said:

So you say that a BMPC has a longer run time with an external power suply compared to a C70 with it’s on camera battery...? Sure, why wouldn‘t it have that? Get a V-Mount battery and the difference will increase even more... 
But then again, use that external power source on the C70 and the whole argument is gone. I mean, of course it‘s only hot swappable if you have two power sources...

What I'm saying is that for the actual capacity of the internal battery, the BMPCC4K has a pretty good run time (50min from my tests). That may not suit everyone's shooting style, but comparing a 14Wh battery to a 45Wh battery is not apples with apples. And one of my BMPCC4Ks does use a V-lock (120Wh) and I can shoot and power all the accessories for at least 6 hours continuously. The C70 battery is not really an internal battery, but an external one, as it takes batteries of various sizes so, again, not an apples with apples comparison. And both of my BMPCC4Ks are hot swappable, in the field.

 

4 hours ago, Michi said:

And with good reason. If it‘s not the power management of the BMPC (as your equation indicates), then it‘s the decison to use LP-E6Ns as on camera power source. Why use those small batteries for a camera with such powerfull recording options? And worse: why on earth did they decide to use a different model of batteries for their grip? If you don‘t want to use external power sources almost any camera I know lasts longer than the BMPC (except maybe the GoPros).  That simply is a fact.

Again, an entirely spurious argument. How big would the BMPCC4K have been were it equiped with a 45Wh battery? At least that of the C70, which is like a BMPCC4K but with a massive growth on it's back (almost as tall and fatter than a 1Dx). With the external battery adapter, I get anywhere up to four hours of recording time depending on the size of battery attached, and the camera is still smaller and less bulky than the C70, this is with a cage.

My view from the outset has been that the internal battery of the BMPCC4K was designed akin to an UPS, there as a backup option when the external battery needs to be changed. That provides a huge number of benefits. Of course you can film for up to 50min on the internal battery and even that, for many users, is sufficient. Perhaps BMPCC4K users are slightly more innovative than others?

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11 hours ago, Mark Broadbent said:

I expect my assistants will be using them to check my lenses and camera's back focus/mount adapter flange and shim accuracy etc.  

You'd be doing that in a controlled environment, using a suitable chart, would you not? One of my stills cameras allows me to focus adjust lenses in-camera, but you need to use an appropriate test object that you can then reference and check for focus accuracy. You wouldn't start doing that on-set.

But because of all manner of variables, don't your focus pullers (is it 2AC?) do the measurements with a test subject and then mark the points on the focus control wheel for each scene. That's why the focus wheels have that white ring for marking with a white Board marker? Is that not the case?

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8 minutes ago, Australian Image (Ray) said:

You'd be doing that in a controlled environment, using a suitable chart, would you not? One of my stills cameras allows me to focus adjust lenses in-camera, but you need to use an appropriate test object that you can then reference and check for focus accuracy. You wouldn't start doing that on-set.

But because of all manner of variables, don't your focus pullers (is it 2AC?) do the measurements with a test subject and then mark the points on the focus control wheel for each scene. That's why the focus wheels have that white ring for marking with a white Board marker? Is that not the case?

Cinema lenses have distance markings.  First time you put them on or new camera you need to check that the distances marked line up with the actual distance.  You also need to check that infinity can be reached.  When working with any interchangeable mount cameras (or with adapters) there are lots of areas where just the slightest miss alignment can cause major issues to the lens performance.

Once these have been check any previous lens mapping should line up with the new setup.  This side of things would be in pre.

As for on set there are times where the focus puller doesn’t have their own split...this is when simply running a tape is essential.  Even if they do it can be re assuring to double check marks occasionally even if they’re running the latest aids like focus bugs etc.

Yes,  running a tape is rare however there are times where it is necessary and this one little attachment point is very necessary.

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17 minutes ago, Mark Broadbent said:

Cinema lenses have distance markings.

Yes, I'm aware of that and the ability to shim the lenses so that you can especially get accurate infinity focus. My real point with this camera, and many other cinema cameras, is that this attachment point become quickly obscured when all manner of devices are attached to the camera, especially a cage. I'm assuming that cage manufacturers are working feverishly on a design for the C70 that will be functional, given the placement of all of those buttons, the swing out LCD and other bits and bobs. 

I suspect that not many who eventually own the C70 will give a hoot about the tape attachment knob or even (like me) have any idea what it's purpose is. They will be relying on AF entirely and not even have manual cine lenses (if commentary on forums is anything to go by). But the thing with digital cameras is that you don't really need to measure distances anymore, as you are seeing exactly what the sensor sees when viewing a monitor or EVF. In the film days it was quite different.

My run & gun rig uses an old zoom lens that operates manually only and I love it. It's one of the first Olympus zooms (14-35 f2) made for the old 4/3 system, where no expense was spared, making it one of the best lenses ever and it's price at the time was a reflection of that design. It has no focus breathing, but isn't parfocal unfortunately (close, but no cigar). However, with my 12G VA, I can focus very accurately and easily. That's the beauty of digital cameras.

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For those that are obsessed with the battery capacity of the BMPCC4K/6K, I'd like to put forward an analogy about the battery life of the BMPCC4k/6K vs say the C70. I'll use the analogy of a 4WD and its fuel tank size. Some 4WDs come with a very large capacity fuel tank (Toyota FJ Cruiser) and others with a very small capacity fuel tank (Jeep). Now both vehicles have comparable fuel economy on and off-road (they go roughly the same distance on a litre of fuel); however, the latter has a very small overall range due to the small fuel tank.

Is this something that needs to be harped on endlessly, when there are numerous solutions to overcome the limited range offered by the Jeep? No. It's very easy to adapt by installing an additional fuel tank to increase range, use Jerry cans, or plan your trip to take into account fuel stops. Despite the small fuel tank capacity of the Jeep, it's one of the most popular, capable and modifiable off-road vehicles in the world. I don't own a Jeep by the way but do go bush with a Jeep and FJ Cruiser owner.

The battery in the BMPCC4K/6K is very much like the fuel tank in a Jeep, designed to do the job, but able to be extended by using simple measures when longer runs are required. No one would reject a Jeep simply because it doesn't have the fuel tank size of a Prado, so why reject a very capable camera like the BMPCC4K/6K simply because of the size of the internal battery?

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25 minutes ago, Australian Image (Ray) said:

comparing a 14Wh battery to a 45Wh battery is not apples with apples.

But comparing Camera A to Camera B is. And concluding BMPCs power solution is inferiour to that of the C70 or in fact almost all cameras with comparable features is legitime. Denying that shows a lack of objectivity. 
You might conclude for yourself that the advantages outweight the disatvantages/needed workarounds on a certain camera, but others will conclude otherwise.

- some like to rig their cameras, others hate it or don‘t have the time to do

- some have the time to screw on and off NDs, others don‘t

- some shoot 200 five-seconds takes, others one 90 minutes take

53 minutes ago, Australian Image (Ray) said:

Perhaps BMPCC4K users are slightly more innovative than others?

Perhaps they are. Or others might just don‘t care so much for the technical challenges and prefer to innovate more in other fields of this craft? Who knows?

You seem to expect your subjective conclusions and preferences to be universally true and make the impression of lacking any understanding for varying perspectives. You‘re right and everybody else is stupid...

Oh, and regarding that stupid knob you seem to bother so much about: you can most definitely simply screw it off and throw it away if you don‘t need it, just like you can on the C200 (and assumably on all other C-cameras). 

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