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I'm really putting this out here because there's a good chance that appropriate manufacturers might see this post, more than they would anywhere else. For some time I've been searching for an EVF to support my BMPCC4K bodies when in conditions where the external monitors are struggling with the Australian sun (even though one monitor is 2200 nit). I know that there are also many others that would like to have same, were it available.

What I'm after is a small EVF that works solely off HDMI, has a simple external power input (3.5mm or USB) and has no major features trying to emulate all the features of an external monitor. This EVF would be used solely for focusing when it becomes difficult/impossible to do so with an external monitor. The smaller and simpler the better. Every EVF that I've come across is as big as a standard beer can (or close enough) and costs as much as BMPCC4K or more. I'm not interested in those EVFs that use a low-res 3.5" monitor and loupe,

The reason I suggest HDMI and not SDI is because it would become a universal EVF, for call it 'non-professional use', as it would be used predominantly by hybrid camera users and the like, where HDMI is the norm. I don't know whether anyone here would support such an EVF, but I do know from other sources that it would be welcomed.

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Posted (edited)

I'm also looking for something like this. I can't understand why there isn't an evf with hdmi in and sdi in, no output ports and a 720p screen for something like 600$. Hability to load one or two luts, histogram and audio meters. Is there something I'm missing that makes an evf that much more expensive than regular monitors?

Edited by FranciscoB

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To be honest, many that I have discussed this with don't even want those features, they want something far simpler that is only used from time to time when accurate focus is needed and the external monitor is affected by excessive sunlight.

Some have objected to such an EVF saying that you can't use it all day long because it wouldn't have sufficient eye relief. But that isn't the intent of the EVF that I'm discussing.

Just as an example, this Zacuto is nearly as large as the camera. Is that really necessary? Is it impossible to make something smaller and far less expensive? The cheapest EVF (not one that uses an LCD with magnifier) that I found costs more than what I paid for my BMPCC4K.

 

Zacuto_ACT_Recoil_Rig_S1H.jpg

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You're after the same holy grail as I am and have been for a few years.  Quite why it seems impossible to make something like this is hard to credit.  The components must be fairly off the shelf by now. 

Mirrorless cameras have excellent evfs these days, so the tech exists.  All we need is something like that in a separate little housing.

I have a zacuto evf like the one in the picture, which is just about ok but much larger than it needs to be, not high enough resolution and limited to 24p.  But anything better is too expensive for what it is imho.

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I've seen used Zacuto Graticals for a steal on Ebay and similar lately. I would recommend the Gratical HD highly as it's the best EVF I've ever used. It is BIG - even on my FS7, but the EVF is solidly built with a ton of features. Both the processing power to loop out and cross convert, and the optics take up a whole lot of room.

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In terms of monitoring features, I'm yet to encounter any EVF that is as well setup as the Zacuto Gratical Eye/HD. the 4:3 screen with waveform permanently positioned beneath the image (so it doesn't interfere with framing) is a big deal. As is the fact that you get monitoring of the underlying log signal fed to the viewfinder, and can monitor that log exposure while having LUTs applied on top of it.

That does give the Graticals an edge over everything else out there, however there are a few caveats:

- 1D LUTs, the Gratical Eye never got it's hypothesised 3D LUT addition in software, so you're limited to 1D LUTs. This is irritating, but the OLED is easy to calibrate - so ultimately it's not that big of a deal, you just have to calibrate the EVF to match the 3D LUTs you have applied to the rest of your on-set monitoring.

- Frame LINES. The Gratical doesn't give you the option to use semi-opaque masks for your frame guides (which is frankly ridiculous, as that should be the DEFAULT frame method for ALL monitors/EVFs. Frame LINES are stupid, and points of contrast in the out-of-frame areas can influence your compositions (which is very irritating, and a non-issue when you have masks instead).

- 720p OLED whilst plenty sharp, and plenty reliable for focus - isn't 1080p (which some newer ones are). How perceptible the difference between the two at the viewing angles an EVF actually provides, is up for debate. But it's a consideration.


For use with a Blackmagic Pocket, I'd have to suggest the Gratical HD as your best option. You get the HDMI input. You get SDI passthrough (so you can easy feed your signal out to a conventional SDI monitor or wireless video TX if needed). And because it can be powered by onboard batteries, you don't have the clutter of a power cable (in addition to the HDMI cable from the camera). So although it's a bigger unit than something like the Gratical Eye, the overall rigging can be simpler and more compact.

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There's no way that I'd want to add something like the Gratical HD to my BMPCC4K run and gun rig. First off, it would cost nearly as much as my entire rig. Secondly, it would add half again to the rigs size and I have no idea where I'd place it. Thirdly, it would add over 1kg to my already 3.4kg rig. It wouldn't even be a practical addition to my other rig.

I know that these EVFs are designed for videographers who will be using them for very long periods and likely without a monitor, or very little monitor use, and need the information, options, eye relief etc that such a device provides. However, there are so many other users who don't need those features, but do want an EVF for when bright outdoor conditions make a monitor difficult to view.

I've said it before, the first to market with an inexpensive, small and simple EVF will be inundated with orders. I mean, how many would have anticipated that anyone would be interested in the likes of a BMPCC4K?

 

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Hard to get around the fact that BMD already has a 1920x1080 OLED viewfinder for $1495.

And looking at just the viewfinder part, it seems to be one of the smaller ones too. BMD just needs to revise it to make the mounting part modular and allow for HDMI.

Unfortunately, Ray already knows about all these options and is looking for a new product I guess. Personally, I'd probably rather pay the $1495 and get a good product, than say $600 and get entry level SmallHD quality (haven't been all that happy with those).

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9 minutes ago, Australian Image (Ray) said:

I've said it before, the first to market with an inexpensive, small and simple EVF will be inundated with orders. I mean, how many would have anticipated that anyone would be interested in the likes of a BMPCC4K?

I think we were writing at the same time there... But to frame it:

How do you feel about the BMD Viewfinder with an ARRI rosette (or similar) on the side of the optical part?

Would you rather pay $700 and get "half" the image, or would $1495 be acceptable?

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Wooden Camera apparently made a modification that you could apply to the original Blackmagic Ursa viewfinder that did away with the arm, making it much smaller and able to be used with any camera (I think it still required SDI). The modification is no longer available and it did take some skill to make the modification.

If Blackmagic produced something akin to the Ursa viewfinder (without the arm) and in a more universal form and lower cost (it costs more than a BMPCC6K), I think people would jump at it. The Ursa viewfinder provides far more than what I or many others need, but that wouldn't be such a problem if it was reasonably priced.

I honestly can't say what price would be ideal. Maybe something in the VA price range.

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I just wanted to update this thread after reading about the Z CAM EVF Electronic Viewfinder that's just been released. Again we have a monstrously larger EVF 174.5 x 76.3 x 73.3mm (7" x 3" x 3") that weighs 616.6g (1.36lb). This weighs more than two of my IDX NP-F970 batteries or just less than my 120Wh V-lock battery. Physically, it's as big as my Olympus 14-35mm f 2 lens with adapter, or way bigger than a Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 HSM Art lens, or the DZO 50-125mm T2.8 Pictor lens. Is there a camera behind that EVF?

Z-Cam-EVF-on-cam-3.jpg

 

One day, one day, I hope that someone will produce a simple, small and lightweight EVF that just shows the image and maybe what the camera is showing, as with monitors, and no other geegaws.

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1 hour ago, Australian Image (Ray) said:

I just wanted to update this thread after reading about the Z CAM EVF Electronic Viewfinder that's just been released. Again we have a monstrously larger EVF 174.5 x 76.3 x 73.3mm (7" x 3" x 3") that weighs 616.6g (1.36lb). This weighs more than two of my IDX NP-F970 batteries or just less than my 120Wh V-lock battery. Physically, it's as big as my Olympus 14-35mm f 2 lens with adapter, or way bigger than a Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 HSM Art lens, or the DZO 50-125mm T2.8 Pictor lens. Is there a camera behind that EVF?

Z-Cam-EVF-on-cam-3.jpg

 

One day, one day, I hope that someone will produce a simple, small and lightweight EVF that just shows the image and maybe what the camera is showing, as with monitors, and no other geegaws.

An EVF can only be so small. The screen has to be a certain size so when you put your eye up to it you are not looking at a postage stamped size. EVFs have got a lot smaller than they used to be. 

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16 minutes ago, Matthew Allard ACS said:

An EVF can only be so small. The screen has to be a certain size so when you put your eye up to it you are not looking at a postage stamped size. EVFs have got a lot smaller than they used to be. 

I totally get it if you are using a shoulder rig and rely on an EVF for hours on end and require good eye relief. What I can't seem to impart is what the other side of the coin wants/needs.

I, and many others, don't use my camera in a shoulder rig capacity, but hand hold it at waist level or lower most of the time, using a monitor for focus and composition. But there are times when the monitor isn't ideal, even the brightest monitor available, and this is where an EVF would solve the problem. But I don't want an EVF that is as big as my lens and not much lighter.

This EVF doesn't need to be complex and all encompassing, as it would be just used for focus and composition. Mirrorless camera users have the ability to fall back on their built-in EVF, but even that's not always ideal if the camera is rigged up where you can't mash your eye into the EVF.

And such an EVF wouldn't just be useful for cine camera users, but even for still photographers. There are many times when a stills photographer could make great use of an EVF attached to an external EVF when the built-in EVF or screen isn't accessible, such as with macro work when low to the ground etc. I can attach a monitor to my mirrorless camera via HDMI and get a much bigger screen to view on, but in very bright sunlight that may not be enough.

I could bet my left nut that as soon as one manufacturer released such an EVF, World + Dog would be in pursuit offering an even better one. There is no reason whatsoever that an EVF couldn't be smaller given that these built-in EVFs are so good that you can use them while wearing glasses and not have to mash your eye into the eye-cup. How on earth could photographers use their cameras if the EVFs were no good? The image in the EVF in my E-M1 MkII looks as large as that of my 17" laptop.

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2 hours ago, Australian Image (Ray) said:

I totally get it if you are using a shoulder rig and rely on an EVF for hours on end and require good eye relief. What I can't seem to impart is what the other side of the coin wants/needs.

I, and many others, don't use my camera in a shoulder rig capacity, but hand hold it at waist level or lower most of the time, using a monitor for focus and composition. But there are times when the monitor isn't ideal, even the brightest monitor available, and this is where an EVF would solve the problem. But I don't want an EVF that is as big as my lens and not much lighter.

This EVF doesn't need to be complex and all encompassing, as it would be just used for focus and composition. Mirrorless camera users have the ability to fall back on their built-in EVF, but even that's not always ideal if the camera is rigged up where you can't mash your eye into the EVF.

And such an EVF wouldn't just be useful for cine camera users, but even for still photographers. There are many times when a stills photographer could make great use of an EVF attached to an external EVF when the built-in EVF or screen isn't accessible, such as with macro work when low to the ground etc. I can attach a monitor to my mirrorless camera via HDMI and get a much bigger screen to view on, but in very bright sunlight that may not be enough.

I could bet my left nut that as soon as one manufacturer released such an EVF, World + Dog would be in pursuit offering an even better one. There is no reason whatsoever that an EVF couldn't be smaller given that these built-in EVFs are so good that you can use them while wearing glasses and not have to mash your eye into the eye-cup. How on earth could photographers use their cameras if the EVFs were no good? The image in the EVF in my E-M1 MkII looks as large as that of my 17" laptop.

My take is that the demand just isn’t there otherwise someone would have come up with something already. I think because people are using monitors and not shoulder mounting cameras because of the camera design, the demand for an EVF is small. I personally prefer cameras that have a dedicated EVF. I don’t know how people judge critical focus, color and exposure off small LCD screens in cameras. Also the hand holding on no front of the body only really works if you are tall, otherwise the camera angle is always pointing up at a subject. 

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17 minutes ago, Matthew Allard ACS said:

My take is that the demand just isn’t there otherwise someone would have come up with something already.

No offence, but the attitude from long-term film makers is what I think kills any such innovation or at least any attempt to test the waters. The view is always that it won't work, it's useless to consider, no way I'd buy such a thing. The mere thought is discredited before it could even be tried.

It reminds me of a number of people I've known who declare that they don't like Asian food. I ask them have they tried Asian food and it's no, but they know they won't like it. All long-term film makers/videographers seem to reject the thought of a smaller, lighter, simpler, EVF outright because they've never tried one.

With my E-M1 MkII EVF, I can judge focus and composition precisely. Colour is irrelevant and to some extent exposure, if you shoot RAW. I very much suspect that these 'beer can' EVFs show no larger an image than that of my E-M1 MkII.

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15 minutes ago, Graham Kay said:

Applying the tried and tested formula...

It can be cheap, small or good; choose two.

And all too often proven wrong. To wit, 'Too many cooks spoil the broth' or 'Many hands make light work'.

It's not about cheap, small or good these are not absolutes. It's about reasonable price, reasonable size/weight and reasonable quality.

Were this not the case, we'd have no cinema quality cameras that other than major film studios could afford.

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Posted (edited)

I'm not sure that pricing is always as cynical as you imply.  A manufacturer will only put the effort into designing, developing, marketing and retooling and manufacturing something they know will sell.  They're unlikely to price it above what they know buyers will think reasonable.  The demand for evfs is (always has been) small.

Yes, mirrorless cameras have really good evfs and it would be great if you could just rehouse one of those.  But consider how much of the circuitry, power and I/0 it shares with the rest of the camera.  All of that would need to be redesigned and built in too.   The the r&d cost of this needs to be recovered and if spread across the small number of units that would sell this would inevitably drive up the cost of the unit. 

As a comparison, the add-on XLR audio unit you can buy for, the GH5 seem expensive for what it is but this is because only a small proportion of camera buyers need one.

This might be frustrating, but it's also unfortunately true, surely.

Edited by Graham Kay

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3 hours ago, Australian Image (Ray) said:

No offence, but the attitude from long-term film makers is what I think kills any such innovation or at least any attempt to test the waters. The view is always that it won't work, it's useless to consider, no way I'd buy such a thing. The mere thought is discredited before it could even be tried.

It reminds me of a number of people I've known who declare that they don't like Asian food. I ask them have they tried Asian food and it's no, but they know they won't like it. All long-term film makers/videographers seem to reject the thought of a smaller, lighter, simpler, EVF outright because they've never tried one.

With my E-M1 MkII EVF, I can judge focus and composition precisely. Colour is irrelevant and to some extent exposure, if you shoot RAW. I very much suspect that these 'beer can' EVFs show no larger an image than that of my E-M1 MkII.

I doubt anyone is trying to purposely make an EVF that is large for no reason. Making things smaller is not always that easy and usually the smaller you make something the more compromises you have to make. 
 

I welcome innovation and if somebody manages to make something smaller that would be great. 
 

Kinefinity makes one that is actually pretty small, but it’s proprietary. I don’t think you could make one much smaller than that, but it is powered and the image comes through a single Lemo cable. 

0C3A66F5-4CE2-45CD-BDEB-1F48CCC5AA25.jpeg

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10 hours ago, Graham Kay said:

I'm not sure that pricing is always as cynical as you imply.  A manufacturer will only put the effort into designing, developing, marketing and retooling and manufacturing something they know will sell.  They're unlikely to price it above what they know buyers will think reasonable.  The demand for evfs is (always has been) small.

It's the chicken and egg syndrome. No one demanded an iPhone, yet when it came out it was immensely popular. Every time that I raise this EVF question, in more than one fora, there are always replies that people would love to have such a thing. The technology is already there, it simply needs to be rehoused. Taking Panasonic, the GM5 is an utterly tiny camera, it make the Z-Cam EVF look gigantic, yet the GM5 incorporates an EVF. Look what can be crammed into a tiny mobile phone.

As i pointed out earlier, those add-on EVF for mirrorless cameras are tiny, it wouldn't take much to add whatever is necessary to make them function as a universal EVF. And this is what I'm talking about, a universal one that can be adapted to any camera with any sort of HDMI output. It's like monitors, there are so many available, including constant new ones that it makes you wonder how there's any profit in their production.

10 hours ago, Graham Kay said:

As a comparison, the add-on XLR audio unit you can buy for, the GH5 seem expensive for what it is but this is because only a small proportion of camera buyers need one.

And the cameras don't have SDI either because it's not something that most require or want. On the other hand, an EVF that can be used in numerous ways is akin to a wireless follow focus or wireless monitor transmitter.

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8 hours ago, Matthew Allard ACS said:

I doubt anyone is trying to purposely make an EVF that is large for no reason. Making things smaller is not always that easy and usually the smaller you make something the more compromises you have to make. 

I think part of the reason for these EVFs being so large is that they incorporate too many features and they are designed to be used for hours on end, so the optics are designed for comfort. But just consider the Z-Cam EVF. It has all manner of features that require not just internal circuitry but external controls as well.

Take away most of those things, just have a HDMI input, a power input and an on/off switch and that's about it. The Kinefinity EVF is almost that by design and is a lot smaller than the Z-Cam EVF. But all of these EVFs are made by small(ish) companies, producing for a limited and generally affluent client base.

If Blackmagic can produce a US$1200 cinema camera for its small(ish) market, then what could a much bigger company produce by way of an EVF for a very large market (both stills and video)? 

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Posted (edited)

Just to explain further. This is an EVF that could be used with earlier models of Olympus mirrorless cameras, these are available for numerous other brands as well. I have one and it works very well, easy to see and focus:

000021472.jpg

000021476.jpg

Now clearly there are electronics within the camera that provides a signal to the EVF display, but the required electronics can't be that huge given the size of the cameras these are used with. Additionally, none of the numerous manufacturers are going to design their own circuitry for this, most will adapt existing circuits to the camera, just like they buy sensors from Sony etc. The EVFs themselves are produced by just one or two manufacturers that are purchased in bulk by camera manufacturers (possibly others) to be adapted to individual needs. These are used by camera manufacturers from Leica to Canon.

Difficult to make? Here's someone that made their own and it shows that it can be done (ignore the primitive nature of the result): https://www.instructables.com/id/Electronic-Viewfinder-for-Compact-Digital-Cameras/

Now if I had an electronics background, I would have attempted to convert my EVF to a standalone system with a HDMI connection a long time ago. Unfortunately my skills are limited to drill presses and hammers.

Edited by Australian Image (Ray)

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I thought I'd do some lateral thinking about this and found some pretty good examples of what could be achieved with probably minimal effort. Take these two electronic microscope examples: Example 1 and Example 2.

Both examples are basically cameras that send an image via HDMI to a computer. In the first example, the entire camera assembly is a box about 50mm square. the second one is a tube 38mm in diameter and about 80mm long (for the imaging section).

Now lets reverse the entire concept and instead of sending a signal acquired by a lens assembly to a HDMI output, lets have the unit receive a signal from a HDMI source and transmit that to an EVF sensor. No big task, as it's been done a million or more times already. Then simply add a suitable small eyepiece assembly to enable viewing of the image produced, something that's been done a million or more times already.

So here we have a HDMI EVF powered by USB that's 38mm in diameter and lets say 100mm long (to accommodate the eyepiece) and which probably weighs half that of the Z-Cam EVF. I believe that this is absolutely within the realms of possibility.

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I 100% agree.  I generally use a Red 4.7” touch and a SmallHD 702 on my Scarlet-W, and am good with that 90% of the time.  Occasionally I just want an EVF for shoulder work or the rare occasion it’s just so bright that the monitors don’t cut it.  It’s not so much of a need that I'm going to spend $1000 on a huge ass EVF that’s waaay over engineered for my needs.  I want something I can carry with me just in case that is just small and basic for framing and focus.  Something I kinda forget I even have until I need it.

I searched and came up empty when I tried to find a true EVF, but the tiny monitor with a loupe thing might work for something not critical.  I’ve used some of Feelworld’s stuff and they pretty much specialize in no frills, cheap gear but is good where it counts, and I found this one on eBay just now.  Might fit the bill at about $350 shipped.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/S-350-3-5-3G-SDI-EVF-Electronic-View-Finder-Field-Camera-Monitor-800x480-HDMI/312995662826?hash=item48dffecbea:g:IG4AAOSw9J9eR5TC

That one has SDI, which I’ll always prefer, but this one is even cheaper at $246 and is HDMI only:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Feelworld-E-350-3-5-Electronic-Viewfinder-800x480-HDMI-EVF-Field-Camera-Monitor/224144207842?_trkparms=aid%3D555021%26algo%3DPL.SIMRVI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225074%26meid%3D7b0865689e2544ef9c14b63a1031d6dd%26pid%3D100752%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D10%26mehot%3Dpf%26sd%3D233464648892%26itm%3D224144207842%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplRVIAMLv5WebWithPLRVIOnTopCombiner&_trksid=p2047675.c100752.m1982

If you want to go used but from a bigger brand, the SmallHD DP4 seems to be not too pricey if you can find them:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Small-HD-DP4-EVF-4-3-Field-Monitor-Viewfinder-One-Product-Two-Devices/233464648892?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item365b93d4bc:g:Ba4AAOSwPGBeHN6k&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACYBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%2Fn%2BzU5L90Z278x5ickkai8xCwosGKpC0NWj85e%2FB%2F%2BgityPEV4Sz4PqIJahCmf%2Fcuj%2FsuS8%2FpYGyKyD7E0eKFxOwsEuYp86KPRw0X44h81p4ilDxEN3kxaCprp%2FjuighDogpRvijudu3b77Q%2Fc6kUrm%2BEBs%2BMNSb4gjAWpE2AOXyVFblyglyuT7O8Fy2dsSjHCajj21IaCgfrkrVPG7hsSMbcmGbMb%2B1dYVNdQiKW2d0h4kZAF1SGiXclrINSsdJy00aA7Grvx7fjaCeZOb25HDGRE20LlpgPdV5sEXz44etbwZDoyvL4dGyPnsKzBG90bmkHfe4rsuI%2BGZ57Tbha4Z9IZXtNmQt8ecAeuFykolCX9I173qIqZNA7GfsanhIwF76PqEzm%2BNL8RhQNDMKT5mmTVGT2iUjpdiE%2Fe%2BONMGd0Cmt9Kv4Y7dUl3l1pb05vcNyD1psQUxiHZRM4nea2p3Aegkoz6%2F1sctxiipK0G8WMpktNPaSikC6b1KxpDLkXAnUTpZEM36KMDsWSceclGaScD0qkZMkJUV1sCKDp9d8uqjuvfniVpOe4rcT2qMQKOG8bdLBbYxaAMgT71pDQhqU1jG2kKVJ3i%2FFGr%2FBh%2Fu8cUH9qEq6fcxHwyIX385%2B3ZqabSO9wJbqHuESeIqpaUVJtjytBVukc6W2VSokptIye4Pi0nFd37iX39DFBDN893oEgTS446eUJ6XbB6QS85Bpj3qAN7h%2B6A%2FclOww6hkTBeM8SqbLbtcqcLbn%2FPirnldDYqBHOue6Pk2J9Ym|cksum%3A233464648892e75a0c6cb8614186b7102ba8355898cc|ampid%3APL_CLK|clp%3A2334524

I may go with the SDI Feelworld...

Edited by Fahnon

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And yeah, I’m not sure why I can’t buy something like this but with a power and video input.  It’s tiny and sells for less than $250, so even if it was double the price it’d still be more reasonable than anything out there.

spacer.png
 

Bonus points if it had a small lemo-type locking connector and you could choose if it had SDI or HDMI on the camera side.  I bet we’d all buy one...

Edited by Fahnon

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    • The Sony Z90 looks solid, particularly with the xlr mic inputs.  I should have mentioned that variable frame rates to include slo mo is also a preference.  Thus the BMPCC6K with up to 50 fps 6144 x 3456 video looks nice and HD up to 120 fps.  With a v-mount battery it seems to get just shy of 4hrs run time.  If it can take the heat that looks like a good option.  I also like the CFast slot. Then I also see the Z CAM E2-S6 Super 35 6K Cinema Camera which shoots up to 6K at up to 60 fps, DCI 4K up to 75 fps, 1080p up to 120 fps.  Not sure how it performs in 40+C.
    • I'm right here in the heart of Tokyo.  Nice to be here!
    • I've used my BMPCC4K continuously in 40+C Australian summer heat without any overheating issues. I suspect that the BMPCC6K would be just as capable. Both are very reasonably priced cinema cameras that produce fantastic results (in capable hands, mine are still all thumbs). The MFT format has it's advantages, as you can use just about any lens ever produced (using an appropriate adapter) and, with speedboosters, you can get almost a full frame look.
    • It you’re working in extreme conditions, I’d perhaps consider something like a Sony Z90 or similar. Then keep your Nikon for beauty shots when the environment is better.
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